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CIBC Economist Katherine Judge joins the Hon. Lisa Raitt to discuss her recent publication on the wage gap between men and women in Canada and why there’s still work to be done on the road to pay equity.

Women’s work isn’t yet done: Where we are on Canadian wage gaps

Lisa Raitt: Thank you for tuning in to The Raitt Stuff. I&#8217;m your host, Lisa Raitt. And in this podcast, I&#8217;m going to share insights on current hot topics in the areas of public policy, politics and business with some guests along the way. Welcome back to The Raitt Stuff. Today on International Women&#8217;s Day, I am delighted to have a special guest on the show. And I&#8217;d like to welcome my colleague, Katherine Judge. Katherine is one of the incredible economists that we have here at CIBC Capital Markets. And she joined CIBC as an economist in 2018. Her day job is she forecasts and provides commentary on North American economic data. And she contributes to research on a wide range of topics. But this topic, I think is particular of interest given what today is. Katherine, thanks so very much for joining me on The Raitt Stuff today.
Katherine Judge: Thanks for having me.
Lisa Raitt: CIBC published a paper earlier this week called Women&#8217;s Work Isn&#8217;t Done Yet: Where we are on the Canadian wage gap. Now, not everybody&#8217;s read it. I encourage you to go to our website and read it, but can you talk us through high level your findings on this paper?
Katherine Judge: Certainly. So essentially, we looked at the gender wage gap and we found that progress on closing it had almost stalled or had slowed significantly over the past decade. So the gap was about 15% back in 2012 and as of 2023 was 13%. So we wanted to look into why that was and we found that it was due to a few factors. So first of all, there&#8217;s been a widening in the pay gap at very top levels of some fields. So you&#8217;re getting a bigger gap between very top management positions, things like the C-suite and other managers. So you&#8217;re seeing that. And then secondly, women are going into higher paying fields now, but those fields are still male dominated and they tend to have higher starting wage gaps. So even though women are getting paid more by going into those fields, the gap is still wider, so those are some of the forces that have been slowing the progress.
Lisa Raitt: And an interesting thing in your paper though, is that Canadian women are really excelling in getting master&#8217;s degrees and PhD degrees.
Katherine Judge: Right. And that&#8217;s obviously something that you would assume would be consistent with a closing of the wage gap. So it just hasn&#8217;t fully filtered through into the wage data because, again, women are going more into fields like sciences and less into fields like humanities, and therefore are ending up in higher paying fields in the job market. But we just simply haven&#8217;t really seen the full filtering through of these impacts. I believe it was 2018 when women surpassed men in the likelihood to have a master&#8217;s or PhD. And again, we&#8217;re just now getting better access to subsidized daycare. So the more that encourages women to participate in the labor market, the more years of experience that will result in for women, which should filter through into helping to break the glass ceiling.
Lisa Raitt: Yeah, and as you note in your paper, the province of Quebec has been doing subsidized daycare for a lot longer. Is there economic data showing that they&#8217;re doing better in terms of women participation in the workforce?
Katherine Judge: Yes, there&#8217;s very strong evidence when you look at Quebec, they have the highest rate of participation in the labor market for women whose youngest child is between zero and six years old. So that&#8217;s obviously very promising. The other provinces aren&#8217;t as far along in access to subsidized daycare yet. But the fact that women are also going into these higher paying fields means more women participating in the labor market should result in productivity gains for the Canadian economy, which would be another positive. So really, closing this gap does hinge on getting subsidized daycare to be more widespread across the country.
Lisa Raitt: Yeah, I remember during COVID or just after COVID, the terminology used to describe what happened in the workplace was that it was a she-session, meaning that it really impacted women&#8217;s participation in the economy more than it impacted men. Are there any lingering issues coming from that?
Katherine Judge: Yeah, so women&#8217;s participation took longer to recover following the height of the pandemic. And that&#8217;s of course, because women were more likely to stay home with kids who were sent home from school. So I think it&#8217;s really not just a government policy issue of having access to subsidized daycare, but it&#8217;s also a societal shift in roles and responsibilities for men versus women that would have to change as well.
Lisa Raitt: Yeah. Changing gears a little bit, you also take a look at how women are doing in the C-suite. And I know from looking at some data that I have myself for an organization that I work with called Coalition for a Better Future, it&#8217;s pretty static in terms of, you would think that with more women in the pipeline moving through getting these executive positions that it would translate just by virtue of the fact there&#8217;s more women who are who can attain CEO or CFO or COO. But it seems to be really static.
Katherine Judge: Yeah, and I think part of that is that past generations of women maybe did not have as many years of experience by the time they got to the age where you would be in the C-suite because they didn&#8217;t have access to subsidized daycare. So as that becomes more accessible, I would expect more and more women to be in roles in the C-suite. And obviously it also depends on men being welcoming and promoting talent and supporting women as well.
Lisa Raitt: Was there anything that surprised you as you were undertaking the study?
Katherine Judge: I was just surprised that the progress women have made in participation and education that hadn&#8217;t filtered through into closing the wage gap more sharply. But then when we looked at the details, I mean, it&#8217;s actually a positive that women are now going into fields that have traditionally been male dominated. And the wage gaps in those fields are shrinking quite rapidly. They&#8217;re just that wider starting points. And as I said, those are areas that will be associated with more productivity gains in higher skilled types of fields and sciences, the ones that women are getting more and more degrees in. So I think at the end of the day, it does just come down to societal roles in terms of what men and women do at home with the kids. And then also of course, having access to subsidized daycare.
Lisa Raitt: Let&#8217;s make the case to the clients who are listening today. The reality is in a tight labor market, you&#8217;re going to try to get people from wherever you can. So a lot of people just say, well, we need to immigrate more, which is true. We need to have higher immigration in order to fulfill the jobs we want to build. However, when you see numbers like you show in terms of women&#8217;s participation, that&#8217;s pretty fallow ground for people to be looking at increasing their the number of people who are working for them are searching for people to fill the jobs they have.
Katherine Judge: Yeah, and there&#8217;s still about a 10 to 20 percentage point gap between part rates for men and women with young kids. So women obviously being below men. So that certainly is an untapped potential source of labor supply that should be utilized and would increase the potential growth rate of the economy. So it&#8217;s something that certainly needs to be a focus over the next decade so that we get that wage gap on a sharper downwards trajectory.
Lisa Raitt: Yeah, so I saw a stat on Instagram where I get all of my really good information, Katherine. I saw on Instagram a meme that talked about how the difference between millennial male parents and the boomer generation male parents. If you were to ask a boomer generation male parent if they had ever changed a diaper, 70% of them would say no. And in the case of millennials, only 3% say that they&#8217;ve never changed a diaper. So society is moving along.
Katherine Judge: Yeah, that&#8217;s certainly a step in the right direction.
Lisa Raitt: Any other things that you think our clients would be interested in or what they need to do to help affect that real change in the labor market.
Katherine Judge: I think it&#8217;s really just collectively, you know, men uplifting women and then allowing women to also share in pay gains at the top end of the labor income scale. But overall, I do think we&#8217;re moving in the right direction and we need to stay moving in that direction. And part of that is just getting better access and more subsidized daycare across the country.
Lisa Raitt: Well, thanks so much for joining me, Katherine. Happy International Women&#8217;s Day, and I really appreciate all the work you&#8217;re doing and leading the way.
Katherine Judge: Thank you so much for having me and happy International Women&#8217;s Day.
Lisa Raitt: Thanks so much for tuning in. Now, if you have any questions or comments or even requests on topics to discuss, drop me a line at lisa.raitt@cibc.com. Your interactions actually will make this better. I&#8217;m your host, Lisa Raitt, and this has been The Raitt Stuff.
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Women’s work isn’t done yet: a conversation on the Canadian wage gap

Women’s work isn’t yet done: Where we are on Canadian wage gaps

Katherine Judge

Economist

CIBC

Lisa Raitt

Vice-Chair, Global Investment Banking

CIBC Capital Markets

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