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Tom Heintzman: Welcome to The Sustainability Agenda, a podcast series focusing on the evolving complexities of the sustainability landscape. I’m your host, Tom Heintzman. Please join me as we explore today’s most pressing issues with special guests that will give you some new perspectives and help you make sense of what really matters.

James Scongak: We’ve advanced with the impact assessment work for Bruce C. And what that’s going to really allow us to do is get the permit that would provide us that flexibility. It would provide for up to four additional units. But what it also does is provide us time to assess our technology options and time to work with the surrounding communities, in particular, the Saugeen Ojibway Nation”.

Tom Heintzman: Welcome to our multi-part series on the role of electrification in the transition to clean energy. On today’s episode, we’ll dive deeper into the opportunity for nuclear power innovation and expertise to meet the rising demand for electricity. In particular, we’ll explore how one nuclear generator’s multi-billion dollar investment program is working to refurbish a fleet of nuclear reactors and planning for the long-term supply of electricity through projects that will expand new nuclear capacity for the future. I’m delighted to welcome my guest, James Scongak. James is the Chief Operating Officer and Executive Vice President at Bruce Power, which is Canada’s only private sector nuclear generator. During his over 20 years of service at Bruce Power, James served in several diverse leadership roles, including as Vice President of the Bruce B Generating Station, Vice President of Environment and Corporate Affairs, and in leadership roles reporting to the President and the CEO dating back to 2005. Among his many advisory roles, James is the past chair of the Independent Electricity System Operator Strategic Advisory Committee, which I also have had the pleasure of recently joining. Good afternoon, James, and welcome to the show.

James Scongack: Great, thanks for having me, Tom. Looking forward to today’s discussion.

Tom Heintzman: So James, let’s start at a very high level. Can you start by providing an overview of Bruce Power’s business to give our global listeners some context as well as where Bruce Power fits into Ontario’s energy generation mix today?

James Scongack: Yeah, absolutely. So at the Bruce Power site, we’re home to one of the largest operating nuclear facilities in the world. It’s eight CANDU reactors with the capability of producing, our goal is by 2030, 7,000 megawatts of electricity at peak. We are a public-private partnership. We are owned by OMER’s pension plan, TC Energy and our two unions on site, the Society of United Professionals and the Power Workers Union. Through our public-private partnership, we lease the facility from the province of Ontario under a long-term lease that goes to the mid-2060s, and we’re responsible to both generate electricity, improve the performance of the assets, and life-extend them. And so through that, we produce about a third of Ontario’s electricity, and we’re also a global leader in the production of life-saving medical isotopes. We’re very fortunate here in Canada and in particular the province of Ontario to have a very clean, diverse electricity system. Here in the province of Ontario, we get about 60% of our electricity from nuclear. So that’s primarily from the Bruce power site, Darlington and Pickering sites. We have a large hydroelectric fleet in Ontario, which generates about 25 % of our electricity. And really the balance is achieved through a combination of gas fire generation and renewables such as wind and solar. Here in the province we’re always very proud to talk about our role as a coal-free province. One of the largest climate change initiatives that has been carried out in the world in the last 20 years was the phase out of coal in Ontario. And really, as I know we going to talk about Bruce power on today’s podcast, the Bruce power site in addition to a number of energy sources in Ontario played a very important role to really phasing out coal in Ontario. We have just celebrated over 10 years of coal-free electricity in Ontario. So, Bruce Power, we’re part of that clean energy mix here in Canada and Ontario. And we’re really proud here to demonstrate that not only have we been able to phase out coal, but we’ve been able to ensure we have system reliability and that redundancy that we need to operate our economy every single day.

Tom Heintzman: James, recently we’ve seen a wave of nuclear resurgence, I would say, particularly in the United States. And that’s gonna require extending the lives of existing plants and refurbishments in addition to building new ones. So I’d like to ask you a little bit about the refurbishment process that’s been going on at Bruce. I think starting in 2015, you led the development of a long-term agreement with the province to refurbish six of its eight nuclear reactor units, investing billions of dollars in private capital into these publicly owned assets. Can you provide an overview for the listeners of the life extension program, what the goals are and were, and where you’re at in terms of planning and execution?

James Scongack: Yeah, absolutely, Tom. So as you correctly pointed out in 2015, we entered into a new agreement with the province of Ontario through the IESO. And really what that was, it was a multi-year investment agreement that really enabled us price predictability. As we continue to life extend and refurbish our assets. So just to paint a picture, as I mentioned earlier, we have eight reactors on the Bruce Power site. And at the time when we signed that transaction in 2015, six of the eight units required multi-year refurbishment. And so the challenge Bruce Power had at the time is how do we develop a multi-year investment program, which is sort of pegged at about $20 billion across the entire fleet, carry out that investment program in a sequential way, so we’re maintaining on the one hand the reliability that Ontario’s electricity system needs, and on the other hand, sequentially life-extending and investing in our assets. As we sit here today, pleased to report that that program continues to progress and it is both on time and on budget. We currently through that six unit refurbishment program, we successfully returned unit six to service in Q3 of 2023. And that was a refurbishment that we commenced in 2020. And we currently now have two refurbishments underway, units three and four. So if you look at that fleet of eight units, one and two were complete at the time of our deal, we’ve completed unit six and we’re into units three and four. And just in the month of April, we received approval from the IESO to advance the refurbishment of unit five. So, between now and the early 2030s, we will complete all of the units. What’s really important for us at Bruce Power is to ensure that every single one of these projects is planned and prepared. And since this is a sequential investment program, Tom, that we’re doing. As we’re moving along, we’re building in lessons learned from the previous refurbishment and incorporating them into future refurbishment. So it’s a program that is going exceptionally well. I credit the success of the program and the predictability from a quality cost and schedule perspective to really be driven by a lot of the planning and preparation that went into this work. While we signed the deal with the IESO in the 2015 timeframe, we didn’t actually start our first refurbishment until 2020. And that allowed us time to ensure that we had completed all of the proper engineering, we had completed the procurement and the training and all of the commercial arrangements to execute that. And so now we’re well into that program. It’s advancing well. And I also do want to give a lot of credit to the Ontario’s Building and Construction Trade Unions who we’ve been working very closely with. They’re actually the ones carrying out this work every day. And while it is a success story from a cost and schedule perspective, most importantly, it’s also a successful project from a safety perspective. And that’s something on these mega projects that I always say there’s nothing more important than people’s safety. So we continue to achieve both the safety, quality, cost and schedule. And it’s something we’re focused on every single day.

Tom Heintzman: That’s certainly impressive so far, both the order of magnitude of $20 billion and six refurbishments and five years of planning. You know, frankly, as a rate payer and as a taxpayer, gives comfort that the historic challenges where there have been overruns are being addressed. So the fact that it’s on budget and on time is frankly fantastic. I’m glad you touched on lessons learned. What challenges have you faced during the refurbishments and how are these being addressed? And maybe you can help for us what some of the bigger learnings have been that can be applied to future planning, whether it’s here in Ontario or in other jurisdictions.

James Scongack: No, it’s a really good question, Tom, because as we know, nuclear projects have historically have been challenged with cost and schedule predictability. And it was clearly important for the province of Ontario to have that cost and schedule predictability. But as a private investor, it was really important for us. Once we set the price of one of these refurbishments, which we lock in with the IESO as part of the sequential program, we take the cost and schedule risk on that. So was very important in terms of convincing ourselves and our investors and we have many bondholders that I know listen to your podcast as well that wanted to see that predictability that we’ve been able to deliver. I’ll start with the issues that have emerged since the program started. Clearly the COVID-19 pandemic was a challenge for us like it was for everybody. So we commenced what we call breaker open, the start of the unit six major component replacement in January of 2020 and in the end of March of 2020, COVID-19 hit. So, you know, that clearly challenged our first project and really caused us to work together to ensure that people were safe coming to work. And then that was done in a way that reliably delivered that work program. And so despite COVID-19, we were able to safely maintain that project. And I really think it was our safety first focus that allowed that to be successful. We carried out one of the largest testing programs in the province of Ontario in partnership with LifeLabs. We led the province in terms of personal protective equipment and innovative tools for workers. And so by focusing on safety, what it did was it created an environment where people could safely come to work, safely advance the project, and that led to high quality work, schedule adherence, and then ultimately the cost discipline, but we invested very, very heavily in the start of the pandemic. In fact, on an average day, we were carrying out, just to put this in perspective, 500 to 700 PCR tests just at the Bruce Power site for construction workers at a time when Ontario was doing 30,000 tests for the whole province. So pretty amazing. I would also say that skilled trades have been in more demand than was initially expected. And working with our building trade unions, what we’ve tried to do is really starting to see the benefits of that long-term training and development that we’ve done and also working with the trades to determine the work patterns that best make the Bruce site a very attractive place to work. So those were some of the issues that have come up that we’ve been able to manage successfully and safely while still maintaining the program. I would say the basics around project planning is really what has led us to our success. And there’s a few questions that I always ask myself before you start a project, is the scope fixed? Number one, is engineering and design complete? And with that, now you’re able to move on and do a proper estimate so you can properly estimate the work. Then you’re able to procure the important components to complete the work. And before you start the work, you want to have those components on site. And then what that allows for is effective planning and preparation and training. And so to me, whether it’s a nuclear project, whether it’s a wind power project, a transmission project, or even a public transportation type project, those principles of project management are really important. And I have to admit, the nuclear industry in Canada, we learned the hard way. And you talked about that at the beginning of some of the past challenges of nuclear projects. And we said to ourselves, we’re not going to let that happen again. In fact, if we did let it happen again, I don’t think we’d be talking about the ability of the resurgence of the industry. So you know, I think we as a, broadly in the province and as a country need to remain disciplined when it comes to those fundamental tenants that can allow predictability with these projects. Because nuclear, like all large projects, those are really the secret sauce of ingredients that when you follow them, you set yourself up for success.

Tom Heintzman: James, the refurbishments are part of the challenge facing Bruce and the province, but at least as big a part, if not bigger, is to grow the supply in the next decade or two, because Ontario, like many jurisdictions across the world, certainly in North America, needs a lot more power. Bruce Power is currently undergoing federal impact assessment to create an option to build up to 4,800 more megawatts of nuclear capacity at Bruce Power Site, which that project is called Bruce C. Can you give an overview of the Bruce C project, how this would complement the existing Bruce A and Bruce B generating stations, and what is the outlook for the project?

James Scongack: Yeah, absolutely. I sort of go back in history, when Ontario Hydro first began the construction of the Bruce site back in the 1970s and 80s, they had actually contemplated for up to 16 reactors at the site. It’s a very large geographic site on a very large deep body of water in the case of Lake Huron. So it’s an ideally positioned site. While we’re far north of Toronto, we’re not as far north as the Great North in Ontario. So we’re only about two and a half hours away from the GTA where a lot of the electricity supply is required and in sort of industrial southwestern Ontario and our site is very well positioned from a transmission perspective. We send transmission down to Windsor, Essex, Sarnia region. We send it down to the western end of Toronto and Milton and then down through Barrie and the north end. So the site has not only has a large geographic footprint but it also has the ability to transmit a lot of electricity. In fact, we have transmission capacity it’s underutilized right now at the Bruce site. So what Bruce Power decided to do was while there was this significant interest in the need for potentially more nuclear in Ontario, we decided to start that impact assessment process and we looked at that as very good long-term planning and you know this better than anybody Tom, if an impact assessment is used properly it should be used as a planning tool. It’s not necessarily a process that always needs to be undertaken once you’ve made a decision to proceed with the project. In partnership with NRCan and the IESO, we’ve advanced with the impact assessment work for Bruce C. And what that’s gonna really allow us to do is get the permit that would provide us that flexibility. It would provide for up to four additional units. But what it also does is provide us time to assess our technology options. And it also provides us the time to work with the surrounding communities, local municipalities, but in particular, the Saugeen Ojibway Nation. Our site is located on their traditional territory. And I’ll be the first to tell you, as they would, that when our site was first constructed back in the 1970s and 80s, there was not the kind of engagement with First Nations communities that, frankly, is our expectation today or anybody’s expectation today. So by advancing that impact assessment process, it allows us to engage with the Saugeen Ojibway Nation. How may they want to participate in the project? How can we earn their support? What are some of their concerns, whether it’s with the existing facility or future facility and how do we work through those? What’s really an important message is that really over the next three to five years, Bruce Power has to remain laser focused on completing this refurbishment program. So this allowed us a new build activity that we could do in parallel that would not distract from that activity. And we really believe that it’ll allow us to be able to make a decision in sort of the 2029, 2030 timeframe around what does further expansion of the site potentially look like. So it’s a planning tool, it’s not a decision to proceed, but we think it’s a very prudent approach at this stage.

Tom Heintzman: James, my last question goes back to the comments you made about the Saugeen First Nations. Obviously, the involvement of Indigenous, First Nations, Métis communities across Canada is going to be essential to build the infrastructure that’s required. Can you tell us what lessons you’ve learned about or in your partnerships with the Saugeen FirstNations and how important it is for Bruce Power to engage with these stakeholders and what’s key for effective engagement. So, you know, to the extent that there are lessons learned in the integration of First Nations into your project.

James Scongack: Yeah, Tom, it’s a really important question and I believe it is we’re in an era now where people are talking about the importance of significantly expanding Canadian energy infrastructure in all facets and this is going to be, I think, the important consideration in terms of how successfully that moves forward. What I can tell you as a leader, what I have reflected on and I’ve personally learned from is really the importance of listening and learning as you’re engaging in these processes and listening to the Saugeen Ojibway Nation, listening to the Indigenous communities about what’s important to them. Some of the historical considerations that are front and center in their mind. And for me, it’s all about building trust. And what I’ve often said is our goal at Bruce Power is for the next 50 years to look different from the last 50 years. From my perspective, I think the path to reconciliation really has to be driven through Reconcili-Action. And so what we’ve tried to do at Bruce power is work with the Saugeen Ojibway Nation on the asset that we have today. They are investors in our medical isotope program at the Bruce power site. It was in a deal that we signed in 2019. It’s called Gamzook’aamin aakoziwin, and it’s a joint initiative between our organizations where the SON actually investors in that isotope program. And what I can tell you, I’m really looking forward in the weeks and months ahead to working with the SON to expand that because I think it’s really important when you’re working with a First Nations community, regardless of where they are, regardless of the technology is, I think it’s one thing to talk about what may happen in the future, but it’s really important to see that that you’re delivering on what you’ll say you’ll do in terms of the asset that you have today. So we’ve always thought that the path to reconciliation through Reconcili-Action is by doing more with the existing asset that we have and enhancing the economic participation. I mean, to call a spade a spade, there is economic disparity between First Nation and non-First Nations communities all across Canada and our region is no different. And so the more we can do to close that economic gap, the more stronger our communities will be and the more that people will see energy infrastructure as an important part of that solution. I also think it’s important to recognize that we have to earn the support of the Saugeen Ojibway Nation to progress with this project. That’s certainly our goal and our focus. And, my biggest learning is there’s all sorts of strategies. It’s really about listening and learning, being open to new ideas. And I think people judge us by the actions that we take. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from my discussions with First Nation and Indigenous communities, it’s that over many years, those communities have been promised a lot of different things from a lot of different proponents, and not a lot of them have materialized. And so I think that focus on action and results is particularly important. I do think as we’re coming up, on an Ontario budget and a federal government of Canada budget, I believe these Indigenous loan guarantee programs on the part of government are going to be very important so we can find ways of attracting capital supported by a loan guarantee for these communities to invest in these infrastructure projects. It’s the right thing to do. I think it’ll lead to both sustainability and prosperity, but most importantly, build a new relationship of trust.

Tom Heintzman: Well, James, it’s been a real pleasure to have you on the show today. Congrats on all your progress, both within Bruce, the accomplishments that Bruce has made and its refurbishments are uplifting. But also thanks for all your contribution to the sector and thanks to our listeners for tuning in.

James Scongack: Well, Tom, thank you for your support and thanks for having me.

Tom Heintzman: Please join us next time as we tackle some of sustainability’s biggest questions, providing you different perspectives to help you move forward. I’m your host, Tom Heintzman, and this is The Sustainability Agenda.

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Unlocking nuclear power innovation and expertise

Tom Heintzman

MD & Vice-Chair, Energy Transition & Sustainability

CIBC Capital Markets

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